Jeremy Au: [00:33:13] Yeah, what you're saying is very true and I agree with you. I think we saw that with China as well. I mean, a lot of companies entered China thinking and not realizing the difference between tier one, tier two, tier three, tier four. Of course, I always joke, like I remember I was talking with American friends and they're like, "Oh, we don't work with tier two cities," and I'm like, "Wait a moment. Tier two cities is as big as any city in America," so just hold up one moment. It's fine to have a tier two strategy. I think what you mean is, we don't want to go for the tier four when you're thinking about what you're thinking about.
Eddy Chan: [00:33:42] Look at India. I mean, I've read some great pieces by some investors I really respect where they call India one, India two, where you call it 1.4 billion, you dive deep in India one. I mean, I forgot, I might be off by 100 magnitude, but I think it's 50 to 100 million people. Call it India two, maybe it's a 100... Maybe I'm over-estimating, where people look at India and go, "Oh, my God! It's a billion!" You got to realize that where your business is focused and based on that, you make a determination what you should and shouldn't be doing.
And if I were to even speak further about that, I look at India, where it's 1.5 billion but people don't realize, and this was a really telling statistic that... And maybe I'm wrong on this, but last I read, I'm under the impression that Indonesia's eCommerce market, they call it, I think it's $40 or $50 billion, is actually larger than India's today. No one realizes that, but that's another, I think, unique stat just to put out for everyone. So sometimes populations aren't necessarily, are homogeneous is my feedback.
Jeremy Au: [00:34:36] That's so easy to pull from World Bank, understate the population number. Anyway, talking about second order insight and going deeper here. There's a lot of people I've met, Indonesians are wanting to come back to Southeast Asia and they've worked in some tech or something like that, they're trying to understand here, "Okay, I know tech in Indonesia is getting hot," but they don't really seem to understand the universe of opportunities, so let's throw it out there. Roughly, I mean, obviously we pulled this off Crunchbase, but let's say how many seed companies are coming out every year that someone could potentially join?
Eddy Chan: [00:35:08] I talk about that a lot. So I saw a statistic and I'm not saying this is right, or right or wrong. I saw a statistic, I think, to indicate there's about 2,000 startups in Indonesia. It may be wrong because our model, we do one deal a quarter, so we're not in the business of talking about our funnel. How many? I mean, if I want to publish the numbers, it's a 1,000. I get 1,000 at firstname.lastname@example.org or email@example.com, but in terms of companies that we think kind of are Series A-able, in terms of we think they're legitimate.
I would argue getting back to my number today, there's about 60 companies with a valuation of $25 million or above in our book, based on our understanding, looking at public insights as well as our own internal numbers. So if I were to look at it, Series A, I define, which in 2017, I kid you not, it was a $1 to $3 million equity raise. In 2019, I called it a $3 to $6 million equity raise. Today I call it a $5 to $12 million equity raise, in large part because of flight to quality and the best companies, a lot more capital.
And also, our founders are being a lot more methodical, waiting for longer runways where historically, I kid you not, raising for maybe nine to 18 months, which I'm not saying I believe in, but today I think it's more of an 18 to, call it 36-month runway, so a lot larger round size. So getting back to a seed, I can't comment as well because we do one to two of those a year. To date, almost all of our seed deals have been sourced in the United States before any founders even set foot in Indonesia, which I think is extremely special.
But at Series A, I can talk more credibly on it. I'll tell you, at Series A, which I define as call it a $5 to $12 million equity raise, I would say, per sector per business model, there's probably two to five legit companies, I would say. Three to five, depending on sector. If it's a little bit busier then maybe you're going to have, call it three to six. If it's a little bit more of a quieter sector, call it two to four, so I would say that's how I would look at it.
As I think a lot about talent, I spend two months a year on campus. We built that social index, if you will, not all but a lot of the most talented Indonesians in America. I mean, if you were to look at the MBA programs where I focus, as well as corporate campuses, I would say the top 20 MBA programs in the United States, no one realizes this. This is like a hidden secret and I'm very public about it, graduate about 25 to 30 Indonesians per year.
So it's not like there's a large volume and my work with about 80% of them, kind of assisting them in their career goals, whether it be joining a company in America or a company back in Indonesia, whether it be our portfolio or outside of our portfolio, with a very long-term view that, if and when they're ready, they can be a founder. We're their first phone call.
So we place so many in unicorns because the HR unicorns are buddies with us and that when their top people come out, we're the first phone call. So I think at Series A, there's two to four, two to five legit companies. per business model/sector. To be frank, for a lot of my young friends, particularly in the US at Google, at Facebook, at Splunk, at HBS, at GSB, I generally recommend them either, if they want to start a company, we're very happy to work with them on developing product-market fit.
Like I said, we meet you, we get to know you, take you through the distribution channel with 20 or so families, hone that product. If that goes well we give you a diamond ring, which is like a proposal, if you will. And if you shop that diamond, it's the ultimate test of character. We just walk from the deal, so fun, too. We put out nine term sheets, one-eight. On number nine, unfortunately, three-month process and that counterparty, I think ultimately just shopped the term sheet, just gross under-appreciation for value.
So getting back to it, I would argue there's two to four companies at A. I think at B there's generally one to three, I would say, that are, call it undisputed category winners. At Intudo we do two to three Series As a year. I feel pretty confident we choose the best company, given our diligence methods run bottoms-up. At B, we only invest in the category winner. I encourage most of the talent I find in the United States, it's been kind of, let's say, in grad school, working, generally to join a Series B company or later.
I just feel just in terms of their ability to pay, not to say money means everything, but I feel those companies, it won't be as much of a culture shock from a pricing perspective. Also, you see that rapid growth, just that skyrocketing growth where you're going to see a little bit of everything, which I think is extremely exciting. But I would say, if you go too late, call it 500 million or C or an E, then maybe it's too late, it's too compartmentalized.
Now, if you go early, either be a founder where you get founder economics or, I would argue, only join a company where they kind of make you a co-founder, and I have some brilliant examples of that. I think some colleagues, classmates of yours over at ErudiFi, for example, ended up joining in it later on, became co-founders. Similarly, another young man at GSB that I've been working with as well is also at that business there. I know your firm, ErudiFi, also is amongst those deployed as well as Intudo.
So I think that's how I encourage people on the early stage. Make sure that you come on as a founder and really get that role. Otherwise, it's kind of a very bad outcome in that you join this early-stage business, you feel you're taking a massive pay cut, you're super dedicated. The co-founder or the founders of the business, if you're not a founder, feel that "Oh, my God! I'm paying this person so much money. I'm overpaying them," so both sides feel under-appreciated.
So I really feel that alignment and that, if you are going back from the United States, I strongly, strongly encourage you even to join as a founder of a seed or A company, or join a rocket ship company caught at Series B, or you come on maybe as a VP or whatever it may be, really take a lot of your learnings, if you will. I would encourage you, like seed and As, a little bit shaky. I think you can end up in very big disappointment unless you're there purely for the experience.
In that case, yes, make sure you're a founder. Otherwise, as a rank and file, I think there'll be a lot of disconnect and there will be a lot of hurt feelings on both sides, no different than entering a marriage or a dating relationship that you're not ready for.
Jeremy Au: [00:40:30] Yeah. I think based on what you just said and what I think, maybe just about 100 seed would be like 20 Series A and five Series B financing every year. Do you feel like that's fair?
Eddy Chan: [00:40:41] If we said, "In 2017 there's 15 in Indonesia. In 2019, from '17 and '18 probably an additional 15 got funded. From 2019 to 2021, in the last two years, I'd say 30 companies got funded, graduated to Series A, graduated to $25 million in valuation, which I find is the post money for a Series A typically. Then yeah, so 20 is a fair number. It's not linear. It's kind of more parabolic. I would argue there's probably 20 new Series As done a year.
I mean, we personally, Intudo, probably do two to three a year. We do one to two pre-As, which are most often these sea turtle-like plays or new company out of companies in Indonesia, then one to two, call it momentum-based Series Bs that are what I call undisputed category winners. And getting back to it, I would also encourage a lot of people thinking about going back, if they're going to join a Series B, in that case then fine. Look at TAM, I get it. TAM, undisputed category winners, scaling margin terrific, not like a "Who can burn more faster?"
But if you're looking at seed or a Series A company, particularly seed companies, I would really discourage you from reading too many reports and just believing what they say because when you read it in the research report, yes, it's true. But often the companies are benefiting from that new trend, if you will. They're already in existence. They're already at Series B, Series C. It's like saying, "Hey, let's go set up a new OTT platform."
Well, guess what? There's something called Netflix or Cashplay already right? It's too late, you know what I mean? And so I think that a lot of people get caught up in reading a report. I draw an example like when you read CIO magazine, what's your big data strategy? Well guess what? You know what? That means that it's become commonplace in-market. It's no longer a trend. It's past, so the companies that benefit... It's like saying EV today.
Yes, it's Tesla. It's not like, "Hey, let's go start an EV company tomorrow." Why? Because you're going to have 10 non-independent-thinking VCs, which often, I hate to say it, a lot of investors operate like sheep. They all want to play. Well, guess what? What's that mean? You're going to be competing on valuation. It's going to be very expensive. Secondly, you're going to be competing on talent. You're on the same campuses, all the top Indonesian talent, whether they be university campuses, corporate campuses.
"Oh, I read about that in Google-Temasek. That's so hot. Let's go into education." Well, guess what? You're fighting for the same talent, so they're going to be expensive, and they might change just based on what comp package, so they're not easy to get . And lastly, at pre-A, you're going to be burning those VC dollars head to head against those other 10 companies on customer acquisition, Facebook, Google, offline, where I would argue, that's the worst you can possibly as a founder.
Other than the fact you can raise money easy, your cost of capital is going to be higher, hiring people as well as in acquiring customers and keeping it at 10 people. As a venture investor, not the worst of all worlds in that you're paying the highest valuation, the burn rate the highest ever and you're competing like I said. Peter Thiel also said it's like "Competition is for losers," you know what I mean? To some extent because at pre-A, this is a learning from seeing how he's invested.
At early stage we exclusively invest in Intudo Ventures, unless we've known somebody for 10 years. That may be different. It's very non-consensus investing. It's like when we back, for example, your classmate Levvie over at NalaGenetics where, I kid you not, in 2018, 2017, people thought genetics were crazy. Who in their right mind would invest in a genetics business in Indonesia?
But getting back to it, what do we do? We take our playbook, we ran it through the distribution channel in advance, made sure we got the right product-market fit. Ultimately each term sheet got came to terms and I kid you not, that business on the back , I'm not saying I predicted COVID. Every single Indonesian that's in America that wants to go back to Indonesia, we're the only game. You can't go to GoJek to work on genetics. You can't go to Grab. Just like when I backed Nuance a decade ago, it's NASA or SpaceX.
So you have to have a mode, getting back to it, when you're early, because you can't win on money. So it's a technical moat in that it's genetics, NalaGenetics versus nothing, no choice. Cryptocurrency company versus no other crypto company or it's big data company like Delman, which is doing government contracts in government as well as in big data as well as in, what do you call it, enterprises, where it's Delman versus nothing.
So the moral of the story, I would encourage anyone that wants to start a business in South... And maybe I'm wrong. Yes, it might be tougher to find investors because maybe they think you're crazy, you're way too early, but not to say just build the business to be differentiated, just to be different. That's borderline stupid, but I would encourage you, focus on something where you do build the technical moat or a regulatory moat, you know what I mean?
And that's really under-appreciated. You see so many businesses Southeast Asia that are so TAM-driven and I get it. At Series A and B, I do look at TAM. I'd be foolish otherwise not to look at it, let's say. But at early stage I'd argue, most investors, at least myself, I'm not confident. I mean to choose the best, I would call it 5-10 companies focused on, call it SME enablement or whatever. Yeah.
Jeremy Au: [00:45:19] Yeah, I think that's so true and I love what you just said, which is the differentiation between the TAM approach, which of course everybody still has to do at the end of the day, but also looking at what you call the talent in order, and I remember Levvie, good friends, I first met her first year of HBS and she's studied and trained at A*STAR in Singapore, really smart, understands both business, as well the science right? And I remember her pitching NalaGenetics in campus and not many people in the States really understanding "Indonesia and genetics?"
Why not America genetics, right, or Indonesia and something else. I'm glad you took a bet on her because I think she's the strongest person to bet on than anyone.
Eddy Chan: [00:46:02] She's done something very special. I mean, you can just imagine the talent we meet. UCSF, top researchers, Indonesian background, they go back in town. Don't get me wrong, it might be for family reasons or whatever, but when they go back in town, I hate to say it, we're the only game in town and we love working with the people and they feel rewarded. I mean, it's no different than us getting behind companies in the crypto space when Bitcoin was 3,000.
Everyone thought we were idiots, consensus-based investing. "Oh, Bitcoin, 20,000. It's 3,000, it's stupid now. You should run for the hills Eddy." I was like, "No." The fact that this guy wanted to do it so desperately and Bitcoin... It's crazy, and there must be something behind it. Guess what? Bitcoin's $34000. Not to say I foresaw that, but my feedback is when you do non-consensus investing and you're right on the back end, everyone just starts piling in on the back of it and you'll ride that momentum and you get the best entry valuation.
You get a beautiful moat given that you have a year or two of a head start. You're on one of these TAM-driven models. Don't get me wrong at late-stage and early-stage, you're going to be continuing at 80%... Not to say maybe it's not winner takes all and maybe there'll be two to three winners, but it's very, very risky. You get in this very risky game, I call it, just like margin compression where you look at all these other non-consensus businesses. I mean, because we're the only game in town, we don't win based on price. We win based on operational dependency on our product. Not all revenue is created equally.
Jeremy Au: [00:47:19] That's so true. And I'm sure you get asked this question all the time, right, by aspiring founders, by students, by talent. It's like they ask VCs all the time or ask VCs about what are the patterns? What's hot? What do you smell is in the air that you're excited about?
Eddy Chan: [00:47:33] Yeah, I mean, honestly, given our single-country strategy, Indonesia-only, that's already narrowed itself. We've wiped out 70% of the companies that get started in Southeast Asia. Given the fact that we're extremely narrow on the stage, I know many funds have gone multi-stage strategy, which I supported. I think that's great, but I think that there's an under-appreciation for kind of knowing where you stand in society. If you want to play growth against the global big boys, I mean, run a couple of funds successfully and get that brand and start.
I think we know where we sit. Series A, I'm not going to get in frenemy zone with a lot of my friends that have deployed capital, that are global players. They're stepping into Southeast Asia, right, writing the Series B check. I think a handful of funds will make it across the chasm and win. I applaud them, but I think I'm much more of a believer in baby steps, crawl before you can walk and run, and when you can run, then yeah. Go to the Olympics, but I'm skeptical a lot of managers realize that, that the AUM game's very attractive, but I think it can really, really backfire in that, you raised the capital, you might not be able to deploy it.
What are you going to offer a founder when they can choose that global brand name that can offer those global insights, so you asked me what's hot. I mean, we're so narrow as to geography and we're so narrow as to stage. In terms of hot, I describe it as the venture ecosystem ripples, so 2011 to 2016, I mean, I don't need to tell you. Every major ecosystem really is Internet 1.0, a lot of general marketplaces caught GoJek, Traveloka, Tokopedia.
I do feel 2017 to 2020 when Intudo came online, really got into the market, we did see more pick and shovel businesses, call it payment gateways. Look at Xendit, it was performing incredibly in the payment gateway space where our numbers have just rebounded incredibly. It's not an open secret doing billions of dollars, processing kind of, if you will, I would say the last independent riels in Indonesia. I think that's done incredibly well.
I think our undisputed category winners, we're in insurance with PasarPolis where, not a secret, we're doing 11% of Indonesia's has bought, well, policies with us, where we do 75 million policies a month, where we just announced publicly IFC coming on board to support us. Historically we had GoJek, Traveloka, Tokopedia were incredible distribution partners. Now with Xiaomi onboard as well, doing Xiaomi's screens, I think insurance, but if there's new companies like "Oh, because payment gateway and insurance is hot, I'm going to go back a seed company," no way.
I mean, the game's won already. It's like me saying, "Ride Hailing is hothot." No, the game's over. It's called GoJek. You say travel, the game's over. So I do feel 2011 to 2016 was what I call Internet 1.0. I think 2017 to 2020 was really a lot of, you can call ancillary picks and shovel businesses. Where we're selling the weaponry, call it TSMC where, without TSMC there's no... Nvidia can't ship, Apple can't ship, so we love those businesses. Call it Xendit.
We love PasarPolis where it was distribution on insurance where, of course, now that we've raised this capital, do we ultimately underwrite policies ? Yes. Absolutely, but I don't like business to be frank that if you will. I don't like the word disrupt. I would argue all our businesses really more complement and really pair hand in hand with those, call it 50 to 100 top conglomerates in Indonesia, 25 of which are LPs in our fund, where we work hand in hand.
And really, those companies, those conglomerates if you will, 2017-18-19, oh, digitization, nice to have. I'd argue after COVID, it's become a must have, and it's the second-third generation owners that have been tasked by their Mom, Dad or uncle with, if you will, what do you call it? Digitizing your family-owned platform, which really was damaged in the downturn, so I think 2017 to 2020 was really a lot of picks and shovel businesses to support these Internet businesses.
So, that's not just in payments, that's in insurance. That's also in what do you call it? Hot logistics and our portfolios certainly have Kargo. That's one of the market leaders in trucking logistics we're really excited by, so logistics. Also, we certainly have seen after the more Internet 1.0, eCommerce. Call it Ride-hail. I think we've seen the advent of a lot of digitization of a lot of old-line industries where I would argue we have the category winner, undisputed category in TaniHub, where we've grown top line over 10X year over year, astronomical numbers.
We certainly have seen that in health where Halodoc, where today 10% of the country if not more is using our product to do telehealth, where Bill Gates has come on and that's meant big investors like GoJek as well as GDP, which is the Hartono family, as well as of course Prudential so we do third party administration of claims, so I do think 2016 to 2020 was the advent of digitizing kind of old-line businesses, is what I describe, more vertical focus.
So, day one was more general marketplaces, '11 to '16. '17 to '20 was digitizing industries, if you will. Insurance like PasarPolis, health like Halodoc, agriculture like, call it TaniHub kind of et cetera. Logistics like Kargo, we're 6th. Maybe your portfolio company launches them, right, and so that's what we're seeing. I think that next ripple, if you will, let's call it 2021 on, where it's maybe we'll see that next generation of companies that will continue in every step of the way.
There's this, if you will, picks and shovel business that maybe tangentially are related to the original Internet 1.0, then the digitization 2.0, then call it the 3.0 of Indonesia, if you will, is kind of how we envision it so I don't believe in the concept of hot sectors. I mean, this is a play from many talented investors like Peter and other folks where they really talk about, it's not that trends make companies. It's certainly the companies that make trends, in our view, and that's not my unique methodology.
It's more just taking from a lot of really smart people I'm adopting from, and not to say past performance indicates future success, but at least I think a mental model's important. That's what we built at Intudo where I think at Series A, yes, TAM important. We always try to invest in the best in class where we run everything through the channel bottoms-up analysis. Similarly at Series B, bottoms-up but a little bit of top-down analysis, because TAM is important although you can go tangential market.
And then at pre-A very reluctant to get in bed with businesses that are extremely TAM-driven sectors and that we're just not smart enough. If we have the ability to really write a check at a later round and control a round where I feel we do, at least at Series A if not Series B, I'm very up-front with the founders that we're not smart enough to make that decision and we're very open-minded about paying a higher valuation, and we hope the founders prove us wrong in those cases.
Jeremy Au: [00:53:33] There's so much of it. I mean, I think the last bit about what you said about 1.0, 2.0 and then now, I think we see the emergence of startups that are building upon those achievements. They're systems and structures built by these 1.0, 2.0 startups is going to be what's really interesting and that's where a lot of these inflection points are, showing up everywhere in certain sectors.
Eddy Chan: [00:53:55] Actually, real quick, I'm really encouraged that I think a lot of investors, at least in Asia, really talking about the consumer story. And what I'm most excited by, if I look in kind of our pre-A, or even our A, a lot of our companies are B2B2C, at least in Internet 1.0, and then 2017, but I'm very encouraged since 2018, a lot of my businesses are B2B2C if not now B2B businesses, with very strong margin integrity, call it 80% margins where a lot of these marketplace businesses like I kid you not are 5% monetization, which is really, really disappointing until you layer in, of course, the interest piece.
Jeremy Au: [00:54:26] Mm-hmm [affirmative], yeah. Very true. Well, I wish you could go in for another hour and dig into this but I think wrapping things up here for so many of the listeners. Obviously they range from experienced, who are founders and investors and executives, but let's think about the next generation, right, because I think that's where the focus on the tech people, the sea turtles, the students, the people who are starting to wrap their head around this wonderful thing called technology and everything you can do for Indonesia.
I'm just kind of curious. What advice would you give to someone at college right now, right, and just trying to figure out a career, trying to think about whether they should go back to Indonesia or whether they should stay in Indonesia, whether they should travel, what they should do with their life, how much risk to take? What advice would you give them from Eddy to the person, as if we were around the dinner table?
Eddy Chan: [00:55:13] No, really appreciate that and this is a very long conversation so I'll try to be concise. In fact, yesterday I got a message from a young lady at USC, an Indonesian woman that wanted to do an interview for her course on entrepreneurship as well as track, so I do think that the most exciting thing, at least for me, is really to work with folks in college. A lot of people go, "How do you have the time to do that?" And I really think we got to invest in the talent, whether it be Intudo or the next generation.
And my number one line I think I call it the two Hs. I really think that we're really looking to get involved and work with people that are very humble and very hungry. And when I say humble, humble/humility, so I would encourage all young people just to... I think people really appreciate that you don't need to know everything and it's really okay to say that you don't know, and to really be comfortable asking for that advice.
I think back to my career, not to say I've achieved a lot, but everything that I've ever gotten really is a function of just somebody blindly, for some unbeknownst reason, just gave me a chance. And I think to get that chance, you got to be hungry, but never to the detriment of other people. I'm not saying go to the library and steal, rip out pages to the detriment of others. Really show humility and know what you know and what you don't know, and be comfortable not knowing and going in kind of the unknown, if you will.
At least if you go left, I always like to say, and it's not correct in your path, as long as it's the light-weight left, you can always go right and course correct, but if you stand there idle, you're just going to die on the mountain, so I'm always of the view it's all about momentum and just trying, and the world's not static. I mean, when you think you're really hot, you're probably not that hot.
That's a mistake I make, my founders make and everything. When it's bad, it's really not that bad, and it's really about trying to adopt that even keel. The human mind is not built that way. At least, I think a lot of the best people are, you may say they're autistic, but you know what? They're even keel and they make very calm decisions. I can't say I do that all the time. I've been training and trying to improve, so I think for any young person, it's just really be open to asking and really be very humble, be very hungry to learn.
Be open-minded. I mean, my path, I never thought... I started doing investing because I was in the right place. I did banking, I did law, then I was a founder and then it brought me back full circle, but be open-minded and try a lot of things. When you're really young, I always say when I meet a young person, if they know what they're going to do, it actually makes me even more nervous. I think that they just haven't really given it a chance and I would encourage you, if you do have summer internships, maybe split it and do two.
A lot of college students, if anyone hears this, they're welcome to reach out to me. Intudo takes quite a number of interns. Most of our interns, we try to allow them to split so they can work half the summer with our portfolio company, as well as within Intudo. The number one line is that, if you're a super-talented Indonesian friend and you want to get exposure to Southeast Asia or Indonesia, I strongly encourage you to reach out directly to myself. I don't have admin, or no one on our team has an admin. Intudo Ventures people say, "Hey, man, what's your team?" I'm like, "It's six associates."
They're "Hey, other teams in the market have more admins than your whole investment team." I was like, "That's right. When you schedule with me, you schedule with me," so yeah. So I'd encourage you, anyone write me an email. Rest assured I'll get back to you.
Jeremy Au: [00:58:13] Awesome. Well, you want to continue this conversation go to jeremyau.com, There'll be a discussion thread about this podcast episode. The details of how to reach Eddy will also be on the website, but for those who just want to hear are listening, how can we reach you? Re LinkedIn, Twitter, email? How do you want to share it?
Eddy Chan: [00:58:29] My recommendation would certainly, feel free to add me on LinkedIn. Generally, if you could write maybe a notation, one or two sentences of context, just so I know it's a real person, and otherwise you're welcome to reach out to me via email. It's just eddy, E-D-D-Y, @intudovc.com and certainly reference my dear friend Jeremy's podcast and my commitment to you, I'll certainly be back in touch.
Jeremy Au: [00:58:49] Awesome! Thank you so much, Eddy. It's an absolute pleasure and I just want to say, I admire the three things that you really said, that really kind of encapsulated it. It's like Indonesia is a market by itself and the depth of your understanding there. And then secondly, of course, there's your understanding of what it takes to win as a startup, but also as a VC. And how your approach is different and how it appeals to different people, especially founders.
And thirdly, I think you have a crystal clear idea about what talent needs to think about and be aware of before coming home or before they set up their career in technology, so thank you so much, Eddy.